Rightly or wrongly rug collectors may be thought of as acquirers of specific types of rugs. For a variety of reasons we have thought of Russ Fling as a collector of Turkish rugs and interviewed him with the thought that a report on his collection would appear in our issue featuring Turkish rugs. We were wrong in our assumption that his collection is so limited. As the following interview shows, his interests are much broader and more catholic than we assumed. But because Turkish rugs are a very strong part of his collection, we have included it in this issue and selected mostly Turkish rugs to illustrate it. We hope our readers will not perpetuate our error.

Kulah Prayer Rug, circa early 19th century

I bought this rug for the stunning colors, especially in comparison with the muddy browns and tans that one usually finds in Kulahs. The outer border seems to be a floral precursor of the highly geometricized and stylized Daghestan borders.

Warp: White wool, Z2S, 45 degree depression
Weft: Yellow wool, two shoots
Knot: Symmetric, wool, horizontal 8-9, vertical 9-10, 72-90 per square inch
Colors: RED, blues, gold, beige, ivory, brown, maroon, black
Size: 6'4"x4'2"
Sides: Not original
Upper end: None, rewoven
Lower end: None rewoven
Condition: Minor repairs, replaced ends and edges

Russ began collecting about 10 years ago, when he was 50. Like Ned Long, whom we interviewed in our December/January issue, he did not grow up in a home filled with Oriental rugs. His first introduction to Oriental rugs was when he was an undergraduate at Ohio State University, where he received his degree in structural engineering. Professor Wilber Ronan, chairman of the Department of Architecture, frequently showed and discussed Oriental rugs in his courses when teaching design. Ronan's name comes up often when discussing Oriental rugs with many Midwestern collectors of Russ's generation, and his influence is wide and pervasive.

However, it was many years later that Russ bought his first Oriental rug. It was not until he had spent "20 years working like a dog" that he decided to buy a few rugs for his and Donna's home. Typically, their first purchases were new rugs and after a time they decided theirs were not really satisfactory. He had a friend who collected Oriental rugs, also influenced by Ronan, and he went to see his friend's collection, which consisted of antique village and nomadic rugs. This was Russ's true point of departure as a collector. His friend introduced him to some dealers and other people who liked Oriental rugs and he was off.

In the interview the name of Richard Markarian was frequently invoked. For our readers who may not be familiar with him, Mr. Markarian is a dealer in Cincinnati who has been in the Oriental rug business for over 65 years. He and his collection will be the subject of a collector interview in a forthcoming issue. He has played a most important role in the development of a variety of collections in this country, Russ Fling's among them.

ORR: One of the things which interests us is what stimulates an interest in collecting?

Fling: That's a good philosophical question. I don't have a ready answer. I collect rugs as I would any kind of art because I think it is beautiful and to me the object is attractive. And, quite honestly, a part of it is the price, whether I can afford it.

I was interested in Tang Dynasty ceramics. I finally had one offered to me at a bargain price. Before I rnade up my mind, it was gone at $2,000 and it was an unglazed piece. The really nice pieces go for amounts which are equal to the value of my entire rug collection. I can't afford to collect Tang Dynasty ceramics.

I also love French Impressionist paintings but I can't afford to buy one, not one. At least one I would want to have. I suppose people who collect things like coins think they are beautiful, but I don't. I feel the same way about stamps. A lot of collecting is accumulating, like matchboxes or bottlecaps. So what if you have 2,000 or 10,000? My collecting is strictly aesthetic, at least in the initial consideration. One of the :things an item must also have is intellectual content.

ORR: What do you mean by intellectual content?

Fling: Some people collect rugs, it seems, because the ethnographic content appeals to them. They like to study the history of the people. It frequently seems that whether the piece is beautiful or not is secondary. I collect something first because it is beautiful. Also, it is an intellectual exercise, even without consideration of structure, wool, or dyes, just a work of art. I find it interesting to speculate about why this piece is attractive and another is not. It is the same with paintings in museums. I've had dealers tell me that beauty is strictly in the eye of the beholder; one piece may not appeal to you but will to someone else. To me, to say that is hogwash. l always put such comments down as from someone who has no sense of beauty himself or is just Interested in selling the stuff. I believe there are universal principles which apply to rugs as well as to other things. Rembrandt was not the only :painter of his time, but several hundred years later he is now recognized as one of the best, if not the best of his time.

If there is no universal principle by which we judge the beauty of an object, then why is there a consensus centuries later about what is beautiful? The ones who go against the consensus judgment simply have not developed a taste because they don't have it.

This is different from what I have done in the past. As an engineer, you have to be precise, mathematical, careful what you say and do. The art world is different.

Melas Rug, circa third quarter 19th century

Warp: White wool, Z2S, slight depression
Weft: Red wool, occasionally brown, two shoots, occasionally three
Knot: Symmetric, wool, horizontal 7 ,vertical 8-9, 56-63 per square inch
Colors: REDS, blues, green, ivory, yellow, purple, brown gray
Size: 5'6"x3'9"
Sides: Two cords of two warps each, overcast with red wool
Upper end: 1 1/4" red plain weave, and three rows of braiding and 2" fringe
Lower end: 1 1/2" red plain weave and 2" fringe
Condition: Excellent

ORR: Are you saying that aesthetics is more or less anti- rational?

Fling: I wouldn't say it is anti-rational; it is just another way of thinking. One of the exhibitions which made an impact on me me was "Primitivism and 20th Century Art." It was primarily a comparison of so-called primitive art with modern art. What struck me was that the layman 's concept of primitive art had little relationship to what those people were producing. It was not primItive by any sense of the term. It is highly sophisticated. And a powerful work.

I am fascinated to think that there were cultures such as the Mayan. The entire Mayan civilization was on the magnitude of the city of Cincinnati, Ohio. And each little city produced great art. If artists of talent were around today in the same proportion as they were in the Mayan period, the city of Cincinnati should be producing the same amount of great art and it's not.

ORR: Yes, I drove through it today.

Fling: The same is true to some extent with rugs. Given the magnitude of that production, there was a high aesthetic standard.

ORR: How many rugs would fit into your aesthetic standard?

Fling: Markarian used to say, "Before you can really know whether a rug is really good, you have to see 50 examples of that particular type rug." If you consider every type, that's a lot of rugs. So I used to go to New York to the auctions at Edelmann's, Sotheby's, and Christie's. One day, I thought, "I saw over 1,000 rugs today." But that is when I was just learning. I would go around the sales and, if there were 500 rugs I would pick the 50 best rugs, then I would go around again and cut those down to five or 10. But even then, at the height the rug boom in the late '70s, there were never more than six or seven of top quality. I like to think my judgment is getting better, and I still don't see a change.

To get back to your question about percentage, I would say less than one percent are really outstanding rugs. And number one creme de la creme, less than one percent.

ORR: How would you describe what you collect, today.

Fling: I've not gone through any phases. Early on, I decided I would collect the best of what I could firid and not the best of one particular type of rug. I know people who collect only, say, Bijars or Turkomans. I have no quarrel with them; they have their own reasons. I decided I want to have the best that I can find. If you're going to do that, you can't limit yourself to a type. You can't predict when something will come on the market. If you want to buy a Saryq ensi, what are you going to do? They don't come on the market that often. I bought this one eight years ago and I haven.t seen another one like it since. For sale, that is. The Chodor piece? l didn't say I want a Chodor bag face. It happened to be available and so I bought it. I recognized it as being a pretty good piece. The best thing is to be open so when the great piece comes along, you buy it.

ORR: But the Turkoman or Caucasian collectors like the geometric forms of the rugs or the purity of the colors. They don't buy Persian city rugs because they see them as too busy. How do you think you managed to develop a taste for the whole spectrum of rugs?

Fling: Maybe this is where the intellectual part comes in. There is a fallacy in saying you like Caucasians because they are geometric. I look at Turkish rugs and they're just as geometric. The same with Turkomans. There are just different kinds of geometry. One of the things I've noticed is that the more I study rugs and art in general, I have fewer and fewer hang-ups. I used to say I don't like purple. Not the purple as in Melas rugs or certain old Kazaks, but a lavender -- until I saw a rug that had lovely lavender, gorgeous lavender. I decided that was only a hang-up and that lavender could be beautiful too.

ORR: Do you still have the first rug you ever bought?

Fling: The first new rug I ever bought ...I'm not sure what it was. The first old rug, yes. I It was a Bakhtiari. Many Bakhtiaris have brown, muddy colors, but this one doesn't

ORR: So, you would buy it today?

Fling: Yes, sir!

ORR: Is there anyone or anything, any event, which has been particularly significant in your collecting?

Fling: Yes, there are a couple. One is Markarian, if for no other reason than that he has sold me a lot of rugs. I consider him unusual among rug dealers. Not only does he have good taste -- not all rug dealers do -- but most importantly he is willing to pass on to collectors great pieces. Many rug dealers keep the best for their own collections; collectors never see them. He is not that way. He likes Turkish rugs. He got me interested in them. He's not particularly fond of Turkomans or Persian city rugs. I've found pieces of those types that I'd like. The other person is my friend who got me interested in oriental rugs. He's the only other person locally whom I would call a collector. There are others who have rugs but are not collectors. He's as interested as I, if not more so. He started earlier and has more knowledge than I.

ORR: I gather auctions are the other part of your learning experience?

Fling: Yes, but I'm not too fond of buying at auction. I think they are a great way to see rugs and compare and learn.

ORR: What about books?

Fling: Originally, I didn't do much reading because I was active in my business and didn't have time. Now that I've retired, I'm trying to catch up.

ORR: So your learning has been pretty much hands-on and through dealers?

Fling: Yes, and to a lesser extent museums. The trouble with them is that they don't show their rugs. And, when they do, you can't touch, and that is so critical a part of learning about Oriental rugs. Another problem is that they tend to show classical rugs -- I've never agreed with that term -- but these are not the rugs that are on the market. So other than admiring them, they are useful only as art. Museums don't relate well to the 19th century production. It is difficult to make comparisons.

ORR: What do you anticipate doing with your collection?

Fling: I have not come to grips with my own mortality. I collect because I like rugs. It's for my own personal enjoyment. I like to show them to other people who enjoy them With some of our friends, it is a "ho-hum" experience and so I don't try to get them to understand. But I have not made any specific plans for the collection.

ORR: Well, you know there would be no great rug collections in museums in the United States today if it were not for a few collectors who gave to museums. If it weren't for these private donors, the museums in this country would never have acquired any in contrast to European museums.

Fling: I understand that is the case, to the consternation of some European curators.

ORR: What role does investment play in your buying rugs?

Fling: I can't completly get over that in buying rugs. I don't want to overpay and I expect that over time they should be worth more than I paid for them.

ORR: What values do you place on such things as color, condition, dyes, etc.?

Fling: I buy because I find a piece attractive. I want good color, good design, and good condition. I have trouble with something which is worn out, fragmented, and with holes. I do buy pedigree, and by that I mean rugs of a certain type should have certain colors, structure, and designs. I would not necessarily turn down something that is not consistent if there is a reason for the inconsistency. But there are fakes and fakes have inconsistencies. I do give some weight as to whether there are other similar pieces published in the literature, as well.

Senneh, circa 1900

Warp: White cotton, Z5-8S

Weft: White cotton, one shoot
Knot: Symmetric, wool, horizontal 11, vertical 16, 176 per square inch
Colors: IVORY, blues, black, red, pink, blue-green, brown yellow, rose
Size: 8'x4'6"
Sides: Three cords wrapped with black, yellow and salmon yarn
Upper end: Plain weave in red and yellow
Lower end: Plain weave in salmon
Condition: Excellent, corrosion in black
ORR: What do you think of auction houses?

Fling: Well, I think they try to run a decent business and get as good merchandise as possible, get lots of buyers for the sellers; and, if you're up on the pricing structure, you can get good bargains there. But I don't have the time to keep up with the prices, to go and buy on a regular basis. This is nothing against the auction houses rather my own shortcomings in terms of allocating my time.

ORR: Do you look at new rugs enough to have an opinion as to where rugs are made today that collectors will be looking for 50 years from now ?

Fling: I'm working on an article right now about early rug collecting which I define as the modern era, about 1875. I am getting a picture that, for the first 50 years, the concentration of interest was on classical rugs. That is not true today because they are not available; the concentration today is on 19th century rugs. But I think we are seeing the end of that era. The reason is that there are fewer and fewer pieces available. It is not hard to conceive that 50 years from now early 20th century pieces will be the focus of interest. But one of the things that I get out of rugs is that they were woven from the culture and tradition of the weaver. I find it hard to believe that is true today. You get Pakistanis and Indians who will weave anything that you want. What they are weaving is not their culture, it is someone else's.

I think there are other things such as the DOBAG rugs and their look-alikes. I think they are the best new rugs today. But I do not believe that they are any more Turkish or traditional than the Pakistani. They are weaving those rugs because someone is telling them what to do. When you have to take the weavers and: teach them how to dye and what designs to weave, they are not weaving from their soul.

ORR: To what extent does your wife share in this collection?

Fling: When Donna discovered that what I was talkIng about collecting was not Persian city rugs, she joined in. She spotted the Yomud asmalyk and said she liked it before I did. But she is not as rabid about it as I. She enjoys it, but it is my passion really.

ORR: You've been at this 10 years which means you were in before the peak of the market in October, 1980. We've been in a down period and now perhaps are on the way up. As a collector what is your response to that kind of cycle?

Fling: I can't say that this is what I expected. I could not predict something like that. Cyclical prices are a two-edged sword. I can buy some great rugs at good prices, but my collection is worth less; but that is meaningful only if I am buying for investment, which is not the case.

ORR; Have you noticed that there aren't as many good pieces on the market with the drop in prices?

Fling: I think that is the case. If I want to collect, it means that I will have to pay more in the future.

ORR: Do you have any comments as a collector on anything we haven't covered?

Fling: I think it is important for collectors to have a good intellectual foundation and knowledge for why they are collecting. They will be more satisfied with their collection and they will buy more wisely.

At the conclusion of the interview, we had an opportunity to look more closely at the collection. As is the case with most rug collections, the rugs were placed on the floor, on walls, and on bureaus and tables. And they were not all Turkish, by any means, as was obvious from the remarks about Yomuds and Chodors in the interview.

We noted that a new Turkish vegetal dyed rug was on the floor in a room which had heavy traffic patterns. It was also clear that condition is very important to Russ Fling. We asked him to write down his reasons for buying the rugs which were selected to illustrate the interview.

Russell Fling's Comments on Collecting

* Antique rug dealers in general are not better endowed with good taste than the general public.

* I've even got some Chinese rugs which I wasn't fond of a all when I first began collecting.

* I tell people, "If you really want to know about rugs, go to the auctions and look; don't bid, just look. Develop a sense for what is good. Ask people what is good and, when they say such and such a rug, ask why." That's the way you learn.

* I maintain that it is impossible to have a scholarly publication without peer review. We do not have it. So scholarship in the rug field is impossible. Some are trying but, without peer review, no one knows, not the authors, not the readers, or anyone else. No one says, "Yes, but" I am disappointed that we do not have such a review for Oriental rug literature.

Melas Bag face, circa second half 19th century

Warp: White wool, Z2S, slight depression
Weft: White wool, Z2S, two shoots, occasionally three
Knot: Symmetric, wool, horizontal 6-5, vertIcal 8-10, 52-65 per square inch
Colors: YELLOW, red, ivory, brown, blue, salmon
Size: 1'6"x1'6"
Sides: Two cords of two warps, each overcast with red wool yarn
Upper end: Plain weave in red and yellow
Lower end: Plain weave in salmon
Condition: Excellent, corrosion in black