We did not explore with him at that time what he meant by "best". He certainly left an impression and over the years we observed him at auctions, learned of people who bought rugs from him, and became aware that he was one of the oldest continuous rug dealers in the United States. Since there are increasingly few of his generation still active in the rug trade, he seemed a natural for a collector interview.
Richard Markarian was born in Turkey in 1905. His family's hometown was Hajin, about 80 miles from Adana in the mountains. His father was a merchant who had businesses and property in Adana. In 1915 the family was deported to Syria, where they stayed for four years, returning to Adana in 1919. In 1920, when he was 15, thefamily left for the U.S.
ORR: So you came at the time of the big immigration?
Markarian: It wasn't a question of immigration; it was leaving destruction. At the time, I was in St. Paul's School, an American school in Tarsus. We had to run overnight from Adana because the Turkish forces were coming. The Turks were blowing up the railroads. We had to get down to Mersin on the coast. My family arrived the next day ahead of the horde of people. Fortunately, there was a boat at the port and we could board.
ORR: Was your family in the rug business in Adana? Markarian: My father was a merchant. He had properties in Adana. They were all burned in 1915. When we returned from Syria in 1919, he built up our properties again. We were an important family there. Even in Aleppo, Syria, during the deportation we were hard pressed but we managed to stay in the city and did not have to go into the desert. Thousands of people were forced into the desert and never returned. Fortunately, my Dad had a connection with a Turkish authority, and he gave the word that the Markarian family was not to go to the desert. He gave us papers so we were free to walk about the streets of Aleppo. I remember staying in five houses before we got the papers because the Turks were looking for us. It was a genocide.
Our relationship with the U.S. was good because of the American school. All of our money was in property, so when we came to America we left all of that because we could not take it with us. We came to America first class. We were not detained when we came because we landed at Providence, Rhode Island. We walked from the boat like tourists because we had American passports; in Turkey, we always carried them in case we had to run.
ORR: So you settled first in Providence? Markarian: No, I had two half-brothers; they lived in Rochester, New York. We didn't let them know we were coming. We took the railroad to Rochester to be with them.
ORR: How did you get started in the rug business?
Markarian: My two half-brothers were in the rug business. Their uncle had been in the rug business and that is how they got started in this country.
ORR: And is that how you had a U.S. passport?
Markarian: In those days, it was not hard to get a U.S. passport. Anyone who was a refugee could get a passport. My father got them for us because he never trusted politicians. We had had American passports for years.
ORR: Let's go back to how you got into the rug business.
Markarian: When we came, I went to work in a factory. We could not afford school; the family had to eat. At 16, I went to Springfield, Massachusetts, to school, but unfortunately there were too many Armenians there and I didn't learn English. We only talked Armenian. The second year I said I was going to a school where only English was spoken, so I went to Chesbrough Seminary about 10 miles from Rochester. I was the only foreigner, so I was forced to speak English. I couldn't go to school beyond 17. My brother was in the rug business and I worked for him for 13 years from the age of 17. He always promised that he would take me into the business, but he never did. He treated me like a kid even though I personally improved his business from $75,000 to $250,0000. (Laughs) After 13 years - I worked 16 hours a day - the depression came, business was terrible, and he says, "1 am going to cut your salary by 20%." That hurt me. I said, "I'm going to take a week off," and that was the last he saw of me. That was 1935. I was single, 30 years old, so I went to about seven different cities to locate myself. The last city I went to was Cincinnati, where I stayed at a hotel and the next day I saw activity. I said, "1 think I will stay here if I can locate myself."
The next day I went around to see if I could find a job in a store. Shillito's Department Store (part of the Federated chain) had a rug department, and their business was terrible. They wanted to improve their department, so I offered to help them and they said, "You can run our department for three months." I signed a contract and I was with them for 13 years. After my first three-month contract, I asked them how things were going under my management and they said, "Good, but we don't like the department and we want to sell it to you." Of course, I didn't have any money. I didn't have enough to eat! So I told them I didn't have the money, and they said, "You don't need to. You can pay us when you do have the money." So I am now here 52 years.
ORR: So you have been more or less associated with a department store all of your career?
Markarian: Yes, the Federated Stores didn't have an interest in the Oriental department, but they wanted to keep me for my expertise even though business was slow. They didn't care if it didn't make money. But I wanted to improve myself and I saw an ad saying "Carpet Department for Rent." It was Closson's, a home furnishings specialty store. So I went for an interview, took the department, and moved to Closson's."
I asked them, "How much business did you do the year before?" They said, "$19,000 gross"; this was 1948. I knew the carpet department because of my association with all the carpet industries. So I opened the department with two miserable rolls of green broadloom carpet. I wound up making $190,000 business the first year. I had to borrow $8,000 to go into the broadloom carpet business. I paid the bank back in six months, and the second year I did $250,000 business, the third $500,000. For the first time in 18 years I had a dollar of my own. I had always been in hock before. That one year did the trick. I brought merchandise to Cincinnati they had never seen - quality, quality, quality. Some $50-80 a yard carpeting.
ORR: Did you move the Oriental department with you?
Markarian: Yes, but only good, quality Orientals. I basically went into the domestic business. Within six months the space was too small. I told them, "You will have to give me more space." They said, "O.K., if you sign a contract for five more years."
ORR: You were working on contract at Cosson's?
Markarian: Yes. I said O.K. for five years. But I knew they were going bankrupt. After two years, it did come; the bank was going to foreclose. They said it would take $150,000 not to close them. I said to the bank, "How much money do I have to borrow to save the store?" "We need $35,000." I said, "Here is the $35,000." So I saved the store. The only thing is I stayed there 25 years too long.
ORR: So you stayed at Closson's how long?
Markarian: Twenty-eight years, unti1 1976. Then I moved here. The first five years here I did as much business as all the time at Closson's. It was all in Orientals. I gave up the broadloom because of all the labor troubles.
ORR: You must have been one of the first contract Oriental rug departments in the country.
Markarian: Oh, yes, in those days Orientals were small, but the rug departments wanted expertise. When I left Closson's, I was doing half the business of the entire store. I operated on a cash basis.
ORR: In the '20s and '30s what kind of Oriental rugs did you sell in Rochester?
Markarian: It was always old ones. Seventy-five percent were old rugs, and at one time I had 85 percent antiques. Basically, I had to go to broadloom to save myself because antiques were weak during the depression. The only way I made money was in the carpet business. One of my successes was a rag rug, an early American type. I sold hundreds of them. It was the most profitable thing I ever had.
ORR: It's not very encouraging to today's rug dealer to learn that you made your money on broadloom! Markarian: Yes, but Orientals are more a hobby than a business with me. In 1955 when the Europeans started coming, that is when I started making a profit in Orientals.
ORR: Even in the '20s and '30s you were not selling lots of Sarouks and other new rugs of the period?
Markarian: In 1928, I was selling lots of old rugs. We never sold the painted Sarouks. My great-uncle was one of the first retailers of rugs in America. We always sold old rugs.
ORR: What was your uncle's name?
Markarian: It was Deverian. He came to the U.S. in 1880 and my brothers came a few years later. I learned the antique end of the rug business from them even though they never taught me. I have always been interested in rugs, but then I had to go into domestics to save myself. Now we are back to antiques again.
You talk about Cincinnati! This is the hardest city to sell Orientals because they buy domestic, not Oriental. But I taught them, I pushed them, I trained them, I forced them, I sold rugs. I made a success in Cincinnati.
ORR: In selling Orientals, were they mainly Persian, Turkish, or what?
Markarian: Nothing in particular. Anything old; it doesn't matter. I am an authority on old rugs. Do you know why I am an authority? It's because I handled at least 50 of each type of old rug. Eighty percent of the dealers don't know rugs because they have never handled very many of them. Very few dealers know about rugs. They buy bananas and they sell bananas. I am one of the top authorities in the country, not because I am smart but because I have handled them.
Do you know how I made the money? When the Europeans started coming in the mid-1950s, I was always on the road. I bought 200 silk rugs at cheap prices, give-away prices. I wish I had kept them five years longer; I could have made another half million or more, but I sold them as I bought them because I was short of dollars. I didn't borrow money. The Europeans came and bought them. Later they were sold for $40,000, $50,000, and I had sold them for $2,000, you see. But I took advantage of the situation with the Europeans; that is where I made my money in Orientals.
ORR: Back when you were buying old rugs, were you buying from estates, auctions, dealers, where?
Markarian: I bought them everywhere. I went coast to coast. Many dealers grew up with the cleaning and repair business. They didn't know a lot about rugs. I also taught lots of people not to give them away, because the Europeans were coming in and going around robbing the U.S. of billions of dollars worth of antique rugs. They didn't rob from me; they paid.
But I changed my course in 1948. I went to domestics. I sold everything. I sold hooked rugs, rag rugs, until I had the money. I borrowed $8,000 and, since 1948, as far as money goes I made more money with domestics because there was no other way I could have made it. But my expertise in Orientals paid off later. I traveled 80,000 miles a year buying Oriental rugs.
ORR: Did you ever buy Caucasian and Turkoman rugs from Amtorg (the Soviet state trading company)? Markarian: Yes, I bought from them; they gave them away. But I didn't have the money then. For 17 years, I didn't have a dollar of my own. I used to advertise 9xl2 Sarouks for $160. When I was in business in the 1930s, I was selling new rugs. Later on I went back to old rugs.
ORR: The first people I met when I became interested in rugs were a couple you had "trained" as collectors, the McCaskys, who have beautiful, perfect pieces.
Markarian: Oh, yes! If you teach people, they will buy and they won't sell them. You don't sell old rugs. I taught people. That is how I sold antique rugs.
ORR: Yes, why is it the American public has so little appreciation for Oriental rugs? The Europeans come over and buy them at any price, but for Americans it is a sometime fad?
Markarian: At the Chicago ORRA (Oriental Rug Retailers' Association) Convention, I got up and said that there is no reason this industry should not be a billion dollar business, but something is wrong. Everyone wants to do it his way. They don't coordinate or cooperate.
ORR: Is it the problem of the dealers or the American public?
Markarian: Dealers! If every retail dealer put up $5,000 and every wholesaler put $10,000 annually to advertise, to teach the public, then this business would be a billion dollar business in a few years. But it's "I go my way, you go your way." How can one person, dealer or wholesaler, do something to teach all the American public? For 100 years they have been too conservative.
ORR: Is it because they are Middle Eastern, steeped in the old ways?
Markarian: I don't know about that, but everybody wants to be a boss. I told them that is why I wouldn't join ORRA unless they do something.
Years ago I used to go to New York. I'd tell them, "You are running this business lousy." Per capita this is the poorest business in the world. I've got $2 million invested, but in New York you are lucky to do $2 million of business. You should be able to do $20 million. For these reasons, the cheapest art is the Oriental rug. It is as much a part of the heritage of America as anything else because early settlers in Virginia and North Carolina and New England had Orientals. Many hooked rug designs were copied from Orientals.
ORR: We recently bought a book published in 1913 by Costikyan. All of the rugs they show are custom-made Sharistan quality Indian rugs. They list Persian rugs for sale but the rugs pictured are Indian. Are you familiar with this?
Markarian: Prior to 1880 practically all custom rugs were Indian rugs. As a matter of fact, in the last 25 years the Persians made the lousiest rugs; that is why they are not selling. The dyes faded. Persians are never going to come back. They are finished.
Costikyan was a big family and had a big business. Indians when you ask them to do something, make rugs that will appeal to the American market, they do it. The Persians say, "Oh, my ancestors." Who cares about ancestors! The American living room is different. Politically, the Persians destroyed themselves. They are finished because quality deteriorated. I have been in the rug business 65 years, and there isn't a thing made that I haven't seen.
ORR: Are there some contemporaries of yours from 1924 who are still in business?
Markarian: No, they are all gone. The Gertmenians are relatives of mine, and they have been around a long time. They are big wholesalers.
ORR: What four or five things do you tell collectors to look for in a rug?
Markarian: If they are spending real money, they should buy the very best - not the second best, but No. 1. If they are not spending big money, then buy the worn out rugs.
ORR: What is the very best?
Markarian: With the very best, the quality of dyes, age, and condition have a lot to do with it. The rug has to be at least 100 to 150 years old, well kept, and in shape. The previous owners should not have destroyed it. Condition is very important.
Then find a person who really knows antique rugs, not in words but actually in trading; not every Madison Avenue dealer knows Orientals. I was their best customer. You see, I sell color and character. Many people look to see how fine (quality of weave) it is; that is not correct. Character and colors are the most important. Condition is important because repairing is expensive. I bought a rug a few months ago in New York for $6,500. It had holes, but the color was as clear as the clearest day; so I sent it to a repairman in California and you can't see where it is repaired. But it cost me $14,000 to repair the rug. It is a Ziegler, a wonderful, beautiful, old Ziegler.
ORR: The first time I met you, you said the only two types of Turkoman rugs worth having in a collection were Beshir prayer rugs and Saryq ensis. Do you still be/ieve that?
Markarian: Yes, it is a function of rarity; it is the shortage. Beshir prayer rugs are selling for $35,000 today. I sold a Beshir prayer to Chapman in Chicago for $950 in 1960; it brought $24,000 at Sotheby's and I bid it up to $10,000 to buy it back (laughs).
ORR: You've been around a long time to see trends from Sarouks to Kermans. At the turn of the century, collectors bought Kulas and Ghiordes; now they want Caucasians and Turkomans. Do you have any thoughts on why that occurs and what is next?
Markarians: What happens is that with Caucasians, good ones were always good. They made plenty for a while and, of course, Germans made the market for them. They love them, and Europeans made the market for them in the U.S., and Persians made the market for silk rugs, their own rugs. When I went to Persia a couple of times, the old rugs had come from America. They always had new rugs, but when they saw that old rugs were becoming like paintings, they got interested and bought the old rugs from the U.S.
ORR: It must have been frustrating seeing all of those rugs going abroad and no real customers or interest in the U. S.
Markarian: It was. I couldn't make $20 on a Sarouk in the '30s and no one wanted them in the '40s and '50s. But now I don't give a damn. Now people ask for them and I tell them, "You go someplace else. I don't need your business." I created rugs. See, I am a designer. When I went into the carpeting business, I created rugs. You know why? I had tried to do business with Mohawk, and they said, "You're not good enough for us." I said, "But you're making a mistake. I'll kill your chenille business." You know how I did it? I went to custom dye carpeting and I was the biggest custom dye carpet house in the U.S. People know what broadloom carpeting is. You show them Orientals and they have to take your word because Americans don't know Orientals. It took me 65 years to get to the point to say, this is a so-and-so kind of rug, and they don't question me because I have established myself as an authority.
ORR: Do you have a favorite kind of rug?
Markarian: Bokharas are not my favorite rugs because they all look alike. The only way you can judge a Bokhara is age and wool quality. I've seen hundreds of them. You can tell good ones by the handle; they are like a fur. Turkish rugs are my favorite. They have always been rare because they never made many. The Turkish rug has a simplicity. The antique ones have the best dyes. They have the essence and soul of Oriental rugs.
All the collectors I've made, they can't say, "Markarian put one over on me." They have No. 1 rugs. The hardest thing for me is to sell a No.2 rug. I have never sold a rug that I can't stand behind.
ORR: What are some of the collections you have made?
Markarian: I have about 20 or 25 good collectors, fine collections about 14. Chapman was one of them. Collecting and collectors are my hobby. If they are interested, I like to work with them. It is not the money that is important; it is someone who loves the rugs, who won't put them on the floor and bitch them up. These people and rugs are like namesakes for me. I have no children. My collection and collectors are my legacy.
ORR: How would you like to be remembered?
Markarian: I would like to be remembered as an expert on floorcovering, not just Orientals but all kinds of floorcovering - Oriental rugs, broadloom, braided rugs, hooked rugs. It is my hobby. And I am a colorist. Color is the most important thing! In all kinds of floorcovering color is the most important because every eye sees a color differently. That was the wonderful thing about the custom rug business, getting the color right. I am a universal appreciator and creator of rugs. And I enjoy people's appreciation of this.
- If you have a No. 1 rug, it is the same as gold. Whether there is inflation or depression, the best rug will hold its value.
- Basically, politics has a lot to do with a good rug business. Say the Republicans come in, the Oriental rug business is not good. Republicans invest money and don't spend it. The rich people always wait to inherit rugs when someone dies. It is the good, middle class people who make a good business because they are the climbers and the ones who buy Orientals.
- If I had stuck with Orientals only, I would have been a big failure.
- There is no reason today that old rugs should not sell like paintings. If a damn painting can sell for $40 million, there is no reason that some rugs are not worth $4 million.
- In my own collection, I don't have worn out, bitched up rugs just because they are old.
- I used to try to sell the finest Caucasians for $100 and no one was buying. It used to burn my ass. I was making $20 on every Sarouk I was trying to sell and no one bought.
The Richard Markarian Collection of Oriental Rugs has been established as a separate foundation collection. It will be available on a loan basis for exhibition at public institutions. It is also anticipated that the catalog will be published within the year. For that reason, only a limited number of photographs of the collection were available to us at this time; therefore, this interview has not been illustrated with rugs from the collection. We anticipate publishing several rugs from the collection when we publish a review of the catalog.
